HOWTO: Heavily Forrested Area -- Customers Want WiFi

[Sierradump]

I live in the mountains around a lake and SEVERAL people keep hounding me for WiFi...

I have a T1 at my house which just happens to be atop one of the HIGHEST streets in the neighborhood.

I wonder how I can use UBIQUITI Products to setup a base station, and setup CPE at clients houses???


I don't know WHICH FREQUENCY TO USE? Do I want 900mhz to blast through trees? Or 2.4Ghz for ease of product availability/cost? Or do I want 5Ghz?


I am thinking a 10' pole off my roof with a Sector Antenna Array - BUT WHICH AP should I use? Should I use the Ubiquiti WISPStation? Does that have a "N type" connector?

I am thinking about Ubiquiti Bullet2/Bullet2HP at the client houses with radar/grid antenna...


I could really use some help!


EDIT:

If I am thinking about this the wrong way I would appreciate input on what exactly I need to do to plan this out the right way!

[radiobob]

Sierradump,
I started from about where you are last November. The area that I am working in is heavily forested, and steep.
You have some work to do. My suggestion is that you start with some NS2 and PS2 units. Put a PS2 on your T1 and point it in a usefull direction. Put NS2 where you need it, and start learning.
If you enjoy technical investigation, it will be fun. If you don't, you might not succeed. At any rate, radio propogation through forest is not predictible, you will have to test, and test.
I have some links that work through lots of trees. In other cases, I had to use relays or WDS to get the signal where I needed, even though the path is very short.
If you have LOS other than obstruction from the trees, 2.4 can work. Just not over great distance. I have not deployed any 900 mhZ equipment. You will find that using narrow bandwidth, and experimenting with antenna placement will help a lot.
Probably everything you need to know is somewhere here. I went to school here.
I put in my first AP 3 months ago. I have 3 now, and more than 20 customers. I am still learning a lot. GOOD LUCK!

[Sierradump]

RadioBob,

Thanks for the info! The PS2 and NS2 seems more like a point-to-point solution... I am looking for more of a point-to-multipoint solution..


I am not necessarily NEW to WiFi... I've been around a while... I setup a similar setup in another area using ASUS WL520Gu routers with DD-WRT. I used an Omni Antenna atop a 10ft pole mounted on the street. Put a weatherproof box up on the pole and stuffed the Asus WL520gu inside. 20 clients with LOS have the weatherproof box with Asus WL520gu inside and a panel antenna pointed at the omni.

I only recently found out about Ubiquiti and it looks like the products they offer are quality and affordable...

I would rather use separate antenna/radio as the base station AP. The powerstation2 wouldn't give me 360* coverage.

And I like the bullet2 for the CPE because its cheap and when used with a directional antenna, can be focused/aimed exactly where I want.

I am looking for a powerful radio to use with my sector antenna array... What does ubiquiti offer with a powerfeul radio with the ability to hook up to my array (array takes a single type N connector)...

[WHT]

> And I like the bullet2 for the CPE because its cheap and when used with a directional antenna, can be focused/aimed exactly where I want.

I don't think a 6 dBi directional antenna is going to focus the beam all that much.

The Powerstation might be your best bet for a moderately powerful AP, unless you want to get into the wireless card and motherboard solution.

[Sierradump]

Im not opposed to the wireless card/board solution... I just want this to work well when I am all done! What kind of card/board should I be looking at?

[radiobob]

Sierradump
I don't have experience with using the board/card solution, so I can't give good advise there. I tried an omni antenna on the first AP that I put in, wouldn't work well enough through the trees. I don't know what it is like in your area, but where I am working, the trees are so thick that the squirrels get lost. Keep us posted on your progress.

[Sierradump]

RaidoBob,

Sounds like we have similar forests... Luckily I have a giant lake that I can see clear across and that is where MOST of the clients will reside...

The lake is about 3,300ft wide.

The sector antenna is the best choice for blasting through trees (from my experience).

Once I get everything setup I will report back on performance...

[WHT]

Sierradump...check yer private message.

[Sierradump]

My PM box is empty??? I just sent you another PM - can you copy the PM to me via e-mail?

Chad <AT> anythingtech <DOT> org


Thanks!

[jcooney10311]

I own a small WISP in rural Missouri where forests and terrain are HUGE problems. Over the past two years we have tried every combination of band and equipment you can think of and have settled on the following:

Where there's good LOS, use 2.4 GHz -- We use PS2 and Nano2 depending on distance for the CPE and a Mikrotik RB433AH with a Ubiquiti XR2 at the AP.

Where there's trees, use 900 MHz -- We use Mikrotik RB433AHs at the AP with Ubiquiti XR9 cards. We use Mikrotik RB411s at the client with Ubiquiti XR9 cards.

We use an 8 dB omni directional at the AP and a variety of Yagis at the CPE. We have had very good luck assembling the boxes as long as you pick a good one. Leave the cheap plastic boxes on the Home Depot shelf.

We have a few clients on 5.8 GHz APs where there is unobstructed LOS, but we primarily use 5.8 for the backhaul.

[tdelta]

You might do well with bullet2HP and directional circular polarized antennas. They are supposed to penetrate obstacles, especially trees, much better than standard linear polarization (except dense pine forests as noted in a white paper I read).

[WHT]

What is too often overlooked in the circular polarized antenna hype it that it has no "magical" attributes that gives superior penetration, rather between the vertical and horizontal components of the signal...at least one will get through a little better than the other.

What I found about almost forty years ago playing with 10 Gig stuff, if you were to point a VPOL antenna at a CPOL, you'd have about half the signal strength compared to a VPOL. If you were to rotate the VPOL around to an HPOL position, you see little difference in the signal delta.

Now if you placed a vertical diffraction grating in the path, it would block the VPOL component, but the HPOL would still get through..although still at half the level if it was an HPOL to HPOL.

[tdelta]

Isn't that the point of circular? If HPOL and VPOL are blocked the signal still has a chance to get though; granted, not as strong or fast, but I'd rather have a slow weak signal than none at all.

I wouldn't call it magical, but if it gave me an extra 50ft to a client behind an obstacle that was stopping my linear signal, well... I guess I would call it magical. :wink:

[WHT]

Yes...it does give a better chance of getting through. Its just that some people that have a really, really, really bad link and think CPOL will solve all their problems.

[jcooney10311]

Anyone wanting circular polarized antennas -- I have a bunch that we ripped out. They don't penetrate trees significantly better than single-polarization antennas, and the only work when you have complimentary antennas at each end. Using a CPOL at the client and a VPOL omni at the AP was a miserable failure.

As for Pine ( and other conifers) -- my joking answer to the question "What range do these radios have?? is "about five miles, or one cedar tree."

[DieselPower]

Use the RB411, XR9, and a good grid dish. I'm using http://www.doubleradius.com/Tranzeo-900MHz-Omni-Antenna-12-dBi?sc=2&category=165 for my AP and am very happy with it. I'm in TN and do not have a problem pushing thru trees, and don't notice any signal strength difference between summer and winter. Now here's the BIG secret, use the 10MHz bandwidth, it goes a LONG way. Don't try an amp, I did, 10MHz does not work with an amp, and I had a lot better range and speeds by switching to 10MHz without the amp. I have 38 clients on one AP ranging out to 17 miles from the AP. I'm on a 460 foot tower.

I also have another 120 foot tower with the same setup, and am very surprised where I can pick that one up too.

I am extremely pleased with MikroTik's boards and RouterOS. The best part about RouterOS is if you screw up the IP system, you can still connect by mac address, --you don't have to climb the tower! It costs me $308.17 for one CPE install. If UBNT would just do a Bullet9 we'd be around $150 if the Bullet9 cost $75.... I'm charging $285 for setup with no long term contract, and 45/mo for 768K and it's working.

[rmichael]

Use the RB411, XR9, and a good grid dish. I'm using http://www.doubleradius.com/Tranzeo-900MHz-Omni-Antenna-12-dBi?sc=2&category=165 for my AP and am very happy with it.


Thanks for the tip. What antennas do you use at CPE?

[garymansperger]

The best for getting through trees is a chain saw :twisted:

[jcrites2008]

Diesel Power,

What are signal ranges for your AP's (weakest to strongest)? Also, what is your average signal?

We have tried using XR9's in routerboards and have not had very much luck, the furthest out from our 80 ft. ap we can connect is about 5 miles pretty much LOS. The best signal we got was -75 and the pings and bandwidth tests were very sporadic. The highest speed we got was 3 Mbps and sometimes it would drop down to as low as 100 Kbps.

We're thinking maybe it has something to do with our 900 sector antenna. We're thinking about trying a different AP antenna and we'd prefer not to use an omni. Does anyone have any suggestions on what antenna would be good to use?

Thanks,

Jason