Are the bullets going to come with Power Supply and PoE?

[rconaway]

We are testing the units and just realized that there were none in the boxes.

[WHT]

Opppsss....I forgot to mention that. I had to use my Locostation power supplies.

[rconaway]

You have a Locostaion? I'm not feeling the love here. I only got the bullets. Of course, we fried the first one with 48v.

[WHT]

No...I don't have a Locostation.

[WHT]

I have five.....

[MaximumISP]

I only got 3 aparently Mike likes you more than me :(
Biatch!! lol Jk
Could be your 5,gazillion posts of assistance

[UBNT-Mike.Ford]

Lol guys your killing me.

Mike

[Frotihngdog.ca]

pfft..whatever..I didn't get ANY!! But I think I know why...

1. I didn't ask
2. I have the intelligence of a grass stain :)

[WHT]

WOW...I didn't know that grass grows near the Arctic Circle. :shock:

Ok...I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said that as my partner is a Canadian citizen with the ohhhh so Peter Jennings accent.

I'll go back in my Hispanic corner.

[rconaway]

We did a bunch of testing with the Bullet5 with sectors antennas yesterday versus an NS5 with internal antenna and PS5-EXT with the same sector antennas. The bullet5 met spec and was within 2-3dB of the PS5 with the bullet at 22 and the PS5 at 26 (cable/connector loss). We also know why we had so much trouble with the NS5's with external antennas at the distances we were running. I can also tell you that a Hyperlinktech sector antenna is signficantly better than a Terawave Sector antenna. The bullet rocks. Gee, wish I had a loco to test with also......

[kijoma]

hey.. i only got one loco! :shock:

MTI wireless sector panels are great, especially when you get a job lot from a defunkt FWA provider :)

what delayed us with the bullets is finding a proper 6ghz capable N type elbow, plenty of cheap elbows but most have awful vswr/loss.

[UBNT-Mike.Ford]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the updates :)

MIke

[laser3]

Hey rconaway did you manage to test the distances you were acheving with the Bullet and the sector antennas just wondering what the distance would be for an averave laptop, desktop type client connecting to the sector/bullet basestation.

[rconaway]

We did all our testing in 5.8GHz, not 2.4GHz. We also just realized that our testing isn't going to happen tomorrow because we only had 1 NS5 left and that our only Bullet5 is in field testing right now. Need to wait about 3 more weeks for more testing until we get our Bullet5 back or we can order on.

[davey]

So back to the original question, will they ship with PSU and POE?

[UBNT-Mike.Ford]

Hello Davey,

These units (Bullet 2 and Bullet 5) will not ship with PoE adapters or injectors. This will allow you to select your own adapter or use spare adapters you may have, that is custom fitted to the installation and poe run length you are using.

Thanks,

Mike

[davey]

Ok thanks.

[kijoma]

hi,

the packaging seen so far doesn't look like it will :o , most wisps will have power supplies, others will not though.

a PoE block and and a 24V adaptor option may be useful.

We would be happy with just the bullet (as the power adaptor will either be 12V and/or have a EU connector, both no good for us.

[davey]

Yes, I suppose at least we will be able to localise our own PSU.

[Ron]

I only got 3 aparently Mike likes you more than me :(

And Mike likes you more than me :(
I got exactly 0. With that being said, I didn't ask for any ... but I know better for the next product release.

[Roger Zeinstra]

Here is a question. How long a cat5 cable run can I have between the power source and the bullet. In my case I am running at 13.5 Volts.

Can I assume that the same rule would apply for any Ubiquiti device.

Is there a maximum cat5e length that must be obeyed to keep data integrity. For some reason 150 meters sticks in my head, but not sure.

As far as power losses, maybe someone has chart for power loss over distance on a cat 5e cable.

[kijoma]

hi,

cable varies from manufacturer.. use cat6 for long lengths over 100 mtrs. more copper :), more efficient twists..

the problem is not the average volt drop with PoE but the peak drop during TX etc.. The bullet has negligible bulk capacitance to store power for peaks so a high resistance power feed will cause corresponding drops.

I am not sure what the lowest voltage with margin the bullet will reliably run on in worse case scenarios.

for long lengths i would advise 18V plus, perhaps get a small switcher to up your 13.5V, we do this for battery backed systems.

[WHT]

Roger Zeinstra....

The limiting factor isn't the data speed, but the voltage drop.

CAT5 is 100 Mbps data rated to 100 meters and CAT5e is rated to 350 meters.
Does that mean you can run a 12 volt PoE device out to 350 meters?
- No, as both CAT5 and CAT5e use 24 gauge wire (unless otherwise specified), and the voltage drop for 24 gauge out to 100 meters is too great for reliable UBNT product performance.

CAT6 is 250 Mbps rated to 100 meters by ANSI/TIA/EIA-568 definition, but can be user up to 750 or even 1,000 mters. USUALLY it uses 23 gauge wire, so there would be less voltage drop over 100 meters.

HOWEVER...as kijoma said, it depends on the manufacture...some may be made with 24 gauge and therefore no better than 24 gauge CAT5/5e.

CAT6 inherently has a higher price tag. CAT5 24 gauge may be even higher as its not a commonly stocked item and you're looking at shipping costs.

Furthermore, outdoor rated CAT6 is hard to come by compared to outdoor rated CAT5e.

Likely your best bet for a small scale (non-WISP application), would be to use an 18 volt DC power supply and CAT5e cable (as you never see CAT5 anymore).

[pcourtney]

We did a bunch of testing with the Bullet5 with sectors antennas yesterday. I can also tell you that a Hyperlinktech sector antenna is signficantly better than a Terawave Sector antenna

were you using the 5.8 GHz Sectorized Antenna Array with
four 90° 17 dBi Sectorial Antennas

http://www.cplus.org/rmw/rme.html

or a single 5.8 GHz 17 dBi Sectorial Antenna

http://www.hyperlinktech.com/productfamily.aspx?id=343

[WHT]

5.8 GHz Sectorized Antenna Array with four 90° Sectorial Antennas
http://www.hyperlinktech.com/productfamily.aspx?id=276
$700

5.8 GHz 17 dBi Sectorial Antenna
http://www.hyperlinktech.com/productfamily.aspx?id=343
$150 x 4 = $500

Beside the Sectorized Antenna Array being $100 more in cost and building your own array with greater spacing...I'd say building your own array is the better choice.

http://forum.ubnt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5636&highlight=spacing

Spacing of back to back (not referring to the side by side co-phased array) at 1.9 Gig cellular is on the order of ten foot plus. And keep in mind they have cavity filters AND the radios are well shielded from each other in RF partitions at the base of the tower.

At 2.4 and 5.8, it would be closer, but you have to deal with near-field emissions (not so much from the radio engine, but saturation of the receiver front-end). That means we're getting into a lot of unknowns.

I'd settle for, withstanding further testing, a minimum of three foot spacing of back to back antennas.

As for vertical separation, you get quite a bit of isolation at ten wavelengths. Which would be about 47 inches at 2.4 Gig and 19 inches at 5.6 Gig.

[pcourtney]

23 gauge wire, less voltage drop over 100 meters. Furthermore, outdoor rated CAT6 is hard to come by compared to outdoor rated CAT5e. best bet for a small scale (non-WISP application), would be to use an 18 volt DC power supply and CAT5e cable


we have used Draka Cat6 Armor Cable 23AWG in the past for 1000 metre runs, spec sheet at this URL

http://www.draka.co.th/EN/Communication/Datasheet/Copper%20Data%20Cable/Cat6%20with%20Armour.pdf

It was expensive, but we needed cable that was rodent proof :-)

[pcourtney]

the problem is not the average volt drop with PoE but the peak drop during TX etc.. The bullet has negligible bulk capacitance to store power for peaks so a high resistance power feed will cause corresponding drops. I am not sure what the lowest voltage with margin the bullet will reliably run on in worse case scenarios. For long lengths i would advise 18V plus, perhaps get a small switcher to up your 13.5V, we do this for battery backed systems.

we used some 48v POE injectors from EnGenius, worked a treat ! But this was for nearly 1000 metres using Cat6 armoured

http://www.engeniustech.com/datacom/products/details.aspx?id=185

[WHT]

For outdoor installs under 100~150 foot long, we use outdoor rated (UV resistant) 24 ga. CAT5e cable in black, grey, and ivory flavors.

Over that, I'd use an 18 volt power supply as double stocking with CAT6 or 22 ga CAT5e wouldn't be worth it, or single stocking CAT6 or 22 ga CAT5e would expensive be overkill.

[Ron]

and CAT5e is rated to 350 meters.

Are you sure you are not mixing something up?
Every reference I checked says that Cat5E is rated to 100 m (328 ft).

[WHT]

The references you see are based on standards. If you really wanted to get technical, the 100 meter limit is for horizontal runs, not vertical. Does that mean can't go the full 100 meters with CAT5e at 100 Mbps if you run it up a riser several floors above? Of course not.

Here's the way it breaks down:

CAT3...- 100 meters @10 Mbps
CAT5...- 100 meters @ 100 Mbps, 350 meters @ 10 Mbps
CAT5e - 100 meters @ 1,000 Mbps, 350 meters @ 100 Mbps.

[rconaway]

We did a bunch of testing with the Bullet5 with sectors antennas yesterday. I can also tell you that a Hyperlinktech sector antenna is signficantly better than a Terawave Sector antenna

were you using the 5.8 GHz Sectorized Antenna Array with
four 90° 17 dBi Sectorial Antennas

http://www.cplus.org/rmw/rme.html

or a single 5.8 GHz 17 dBi Sectorial Antenna

http://www.hyperlinktech.com/productfamily.aspx?id=343

We were using stand alone 90 degree sectors, both with the same gain specification. We saw a 2-3dB difference between them at the exact same location on the pole with the exact same radios and cables. The hyperlinktech is much wider.

WHT, I think the price difference comes from adding the splitter in there. It's sold with or without the 4-way splitter.

[kijoma]

hmm

100 metres is a 100mbps timing limit, its not so much signal loss as the ACK timing of ethernet.. above 100 metres you run the risk of lost acks/data due to impatience!

it takes a finite time to travel 100 meters :)

350 Meters is the length of cable (1000 ft) in a box!

[WHT]

http://ezinearticles.com/?Twisted-Pair-Cable-Categories-and-Uses&id=675970
Cat 5e
Category 5e is an upgraded version of the Cat 5 standard and is capable of carrying data up to 1000Mbit/s. Cat 5e is the standard cable for use in Ethernet 1000Base-T. Cat 5e is able to carry data longer distances than Cat 5. Cat 5e can be used confidently for 350 meters.

http://www.linfo.org/cat_5.html
Cat 5e is an enhanced version of Cat 5 for use with 1000BASE-T (gigabit) networks and for long-distance 100 Base-T links (350 meters, compared with 100 meters for Cat 5).

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Network_plus_exam_cram
3) Category 5e cable
Usage:Ethernet based networks running at 1 gbps. Also supports increased network segements of 350 meters instead of 100 meters with regular cat 5 cable.

www.maguire.com/ps_image/pdf/g2-ethernet-wireless-communications.doc
Cat5 is acceptable but has a shorter maximum distance; CAT5 is rated to 100 meters, CAT5e is rated to 350 meters.

350 Meters is the length of cable (1000 ft) in a box! Actually there are 305 meters in a 1,000 box of cable.

[kijoma]

hi

just because it says it on the internet doesn't mean it is true.

counter arguments :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_5_cable

"Cat 5e cable does not enable longer cable distances for Ethernet networks: cables are still limited to a maximum of 100 m (328 ft) in length (normal practice is to limit fixed ("horizontal") cables to 90 m to allow for up to 5 m of patch cable at each end, this comes to a total of the previous mentioned 100m maximum). Cat 5e cable performance characteristics and test methods are defined in TIA/EIA-568-B.2-2001."

i suspect they are mixing meters and MHz :)

plenty of misinfo on the web! , not saying longer will not work but packet loss may be an issue.

[WHT]

An internet web site, a Wiki no less, used to dispute another internet web site?

Timing isn't the critical limitation...its the Near End Crosstalk, Attenuation Attenuation-to-Crosstalk Ratio, and Impulse Noise Traffic.

TIA/EIA-568-B.2 is a compliance metric, usually for contractual specification and installation obligations. Why did they choose 100 meters, why not 110 meters...or 120 meters? All those distance will still pass 100 Mbps with acceptable BER and meet all the TIA electrical and performance specifications, just not the physical length specification.

Structured cable specifications are the same way - you cannot have a midspan "splice", i.e male 8-pin plug inserted into a female 8-pin jack. Now how is that different from a patch panel in terms of performance?

[rconaway]

So if the bullet isn't coming with PoE, what is a good souce for the injector and power supply (read, best price/quality).

[Wifi442]

So if the bullet isn't coming with PoE, what is a good souce for the injector and power supply (read, best price/quality).

This should work. I just happened to have one laying around too. Its 18v but that would help out on those long runs and still be ok. Yes?

http://www.wlanparts.com/product/POE-18I/POE18I_POE_Power_SupplyInserter_18VDC_output.html

http://static.zoovy.com/img/pnt/-/poe_48id.jpg

[WHT]

Good find....price is pretty good.

[kijoma]

hi,

the ones UBNT ship with other units are fine and should be < $5 in small quantities.

We do not trust the oned MT use, the white D shaped ones as they have a series resettable fuse which has issues with heat and high inrush currents.

[rconaway]

Where do I find the ones UBNT sells? Even a 12v version would be fine. I have no problem purchasing quantities.

[WHT]

http://www.powertron.com.tw/en

http://www.powertron.com.tw/en/pro01.asp

[rconaway]

Thank you. However, I need the PoE injector also. Is there anyone carrying the package or am I going to need to order them seperately? What kind of quantities are these guys thinking about?

[Roger Zeinstra]

Thank you. However, I need the PoE injector also. Is there anyone carrying the package or am I going to need to order them seperately? What kind of quantities are these guys thinking about?

I found this site. $5.00 for the injector alone. Not bad.

http://www.xagyl.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=62

They also sell power supplies.

Just remember, the above mentioned from wifi442 is power supply and injector all one self contained unit. I thiink that is the best deal when you consider simplicty.

One more thing. At my place, I have a number of things that needed 12 volts, and I use a battery for a power source connected to a charger. Making and injector yourself is a piece of cake. Probably not worth it the majority of the time, but you know, in some cases.

[rconaway]

Thanks Roger. $15 works for me.

[heviejob]

How come the bullets we love so much don't come with POEs in the package? It would be really cool to have them even if the price goes up slightly.