Shelku
10-23-2008, 04:39 PM
Do you know the details of the FCC/IC certifications? Particularly, what antennas have been certified for use with the bullet?
View Full Version : FCC/IC Certification?
UBNT-Mike.Ford
10-23-2008, 04:50 PM
Hello Shelku,
We will release all of this information shortly.
Thanks,
Mike
We will release all of this information shortly.
Thanks,
Mike
Shelku
11-05-2008, 10:05 AM
The FCC reports are now on the FCC website (FCC ID: SWX-B2 and SWX-B5).
B2: 6 dBi Omni
B5: 30 dBi grid
It would have been nicer to see a panel antenna certified with the Bullet (like the 23 dBi panel certified for the XR5 and something similar in the 2.4 GHz band). Also I really would have liked to have seen the B2 with a higher gain antenna...
Here's crossing my fingers and hoping for better on the high-power versions' certifications... :?
B2: 6 dBi Omni
B5: 30 dBi grid
It would have been nicer to see a panel antenna certified with the Bullet (like the 23 dBi panel certified for the XR5 and something similar in the 2.4 GHz band). Also I really would have liked to have seen the B2 with a higher gain antenna...
Here's crossing my fingers and hoping for better on the high-power versions' certifications... :?
rconaway
11-07-2008, 07:04 AM
There is no way to certify the Bullet HP with anything above 6dB. However, the regular Bullet could be. Is there any plans to do that or did you just certify the Bullet as on device without breaking apart the Bullet HP as a separate certification?
Shelku
11-07-2008, 08:09 AM
I'm curious: why would you say that you can't certify with gains higher than 6 dBi?
FCC 15.247 section b,3 states that the maximum peak conducted output power is 1 Watt (30 dBm) can in the 2.4 GHz spectrum with a 6 dBi antenna. Section c,1,i states that the maximum conducted output power is reduced by 1 dB for every 3 dB of antenna gain over 6 dBi. So a 21 dBi antenna could have a maximum conducted output power of (30 dBm - (21-6)/3) = 25 dBm.
I have seen modular certification with 21 dBi antennas in the 2.4 GHz spectrum before by reducing the output power of the transmitter... but maybe I'm missing something?
FCC 15.247 section b,3 states that the maximum peak conducted output power is 1 Watt (30 dBm) can in the 2.4 GHz spectrum with a 6 dBi antenna. Section c,1,i states that the maximum conducted output power is reduced by 1 dB for every 3 dB of antenna gain over 6 dBi. So a 21 dBi antenna could have a maximum conducted output power of (30 dBm - (21-6)/3) = 25 dBm.
I have seen modular certification with 21 dBi antennas in the 2.4 GHz spectrum before by reducing the output power of the transmitter... but maybe I'm missing something?
rconaway
11-07-2008, 08:26 AM
The BulletHP will be 1 watt.
Shelku
11-07-2008, 08:30 AM
It's still possible to certify multiple antennas with different power ratings (even if the card can do more).
You could certify a 6 dBi antenna at 30 dBm output power, a 21 dBi antenna at 25 dBm, etc. At least it gives some options then...
You could certify a 6 dBi antenna at 30 dBm output power, a 21 dBi antenna at 25 dBm, etc. At least it gives some options then...
rconaway
11-07-2008, 08:44 AM
To do that, you have to provide guarantees to the FCC that the user can't easily overide that. Just try to get a key code for a Motorola PTP radio in 5.4GHz. Unless they do something like that, it isn't happening.
WHT
11-07-2008, 10:11 AM
Considering how many 5.8 Gig WISPs intentionally or negligently deploy on UNII-1 channels (which is specifically restricted in the U.S. for indoor use only), I'm sure you'll find a lot of them running the full one watt into an 15 dBm antenna for a 12 dBm EIRP.
Granted you could have an unlock code to insure the installer understands correct compliance, but understanding or knowing the correct compliance is a long way from actually adhering to it.
Other than a pile of dead pigeons at the base of the tower, how would anyone know?
Granted you could have an unlock code to insure the installer understands correct compliance, but understanding or knowing the correct compliance is a long way from actually adhering to it.
Other than a pile of dead pigeons at the base of the tower, how would anyone know?
jp498
11-07-2008, 08:05 PM
The SWX-B2 is not the bullet but the picostation according to the images and manual shown.
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=945300&fcc_id='SWX-B2'
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=945300&fcc_id='SWX-B2'
It's insanes stupid to only have it approved with a 6dbi indoor antenna, a product intended for outdoor use. I thought we needed approval with a high gain antenna to legally substitute antennas of similar gain or lower gain.
The FCC reports are now on the FCC website (FCC ID: SWX-B2 and SWX-B5).
B2: 6 dBi Omni
B5: 30 dBi grid
It would have been nicer to see a panel antenna certified with the Bullet (like the 23 dBi panel certified for the XR5 and something similar in the 2.4 GHz band). Also I really would have liked to have seen the B2 with a higher gain antenna...
Here's crossing my fingers and hoping for better on the high-power versions' certifications... :?
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=945300&fcc_id='SWX-B2'
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=945300&fcc_id='SWX-B2'
It's insanes stupid to only have it approved with a 6dbi indoor antenna, a product intended for outdoor use. I thought we needed approval with a high gain antenna to legally substitute antennas of similar gain or lower gain.
The FCC reports are now on the FCC website (FCC ID: SWX-B2 and SWX-B5).
B2: 6 dBi Omni
B5: 30 dBi grid
It would have been nicer to see a panel antenna certified with the Bullet (like the 23 dBi panel certified for the XR5 and something similar in the 2.4 GHz band). Also I really would have liked to have seen the B2 with a higher gain antenna...
Here's crossing my fingers and hoping for better on the high-power versions' certifications... :?
jp498
11-07-2008, 08:17 PM
It's also worth noting that the B2 and B5's use a "power chord". A new modulation technique? Page 10 in this document :-)
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=1024047&native_or_pdf=pdf
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=1024047&native_or_pdf=pdf
rconaway
11-08-2008, 07:01 AM
Oops. My bad. I would agree that the 6dBi antenna is too small. At minimum, an 11dBi would have been better but a 15dBi would have been awesome.
Shelku
11-10-2008, 11:00 AM
The SWX-B2 is not the bullet but the picostation according to the images and manual shown.
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=945300&fcc_id='SWX-B2'
I agree that the documentation is a little strange - but the "Internal Photos" link (pages 2 and 3) clearly shows the word "Bullet" on the PCB and on a sticker on the RJ-45 connector. Then again, the PicoStation and the Bullet seem to be very similar...
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=945300&fcc_id='SWX-B2'
I agree that the documentation is a little strange - but the "Internal Photos" link (pages 2 and 3) clearly shows the word "Bullet" on the PCB and on a sticker on the RJ-45 connector. Then again, the PicoStation and the Bullet seem to be very similar...
StuckInMud
07-29-2009, 10:30 AM
It seems Ubiquiti is using the Picostatoins FCC ID: SWX-B2. on the Bullet B2HP. It's stamped on the Bullet B2HP face panel. According to the FCC web site the Bullet's have never been FCC approved. The std. N connector is a big violation.
WHT
07-29-2009, 10:34 AM
The std. N connector is a big violation.Ummm...how so?
Trick question....
Trick question....
StuckInMud
07-29-2009, 11:03 AM
The std. N connector is a big violation.Ummm...how so?
Trick question....
FCC reports are required to explicitly indicate the RF connector use on the product. Quote from page 22 of the SWX-B2 report.
"The EUT as tested meets the criteria of this rule by virtue of having an unique connector attached to the EUT. The EUT is therefore compliant with §15.203."
According to the FCC the Bullet 2HP should have it's own test report and getting the FCC to buy off on even certifying the B2HP as professionally installed could prov difficult at best.
Trick question....
FCC reports are required to explicitly indicate the RF connector use on the product. Quote from page 22 of the SWX-B2 report.
"The EUT as tested meets the criteria of this rule by virtue of having an unique connector attached to the EUT. The EUT is therefore compliant with §15.203."
According to the FCC the Bullet 2HP should have it's own test report and getting the FCC to buy off on even certifying the B2HP as professionally installed could prov difficult at best.
WHT
07-29-2009, 11:40 AM
According to the FCC web site the Bullet's have never been FCC approved. The FCC is very slow to update the certs lists.
On a side note, it was interesting to see one of the radios, might have been a Loco station that showed a Powerstation EXT for the photos.
On a side note, it was interesting to see one of the radios, might have been a Loco station that showed a Powerstation EXT for the photos.
WHT
07-29-2009, 11:52 AM
Here's the loop hole answer.
Found in "Section 15.203 Antenna requirement"
This is what you're referring to:An intentional radiator shall be designed to ensure that no antenna other than that furnished by the responsible party shall be used with the device. The use of a permanently attached antenna or of an antenna that uses a unique coupling to the intentional radiator shall be considered sufficient to comply with the provisions of this Section. The manufacturer may design the unit so that a broken antenna can be replaced by the user, but the use of a standard antenna jack or electrical connector is prohibited.This is the loop hole for using a standard connector: Further, this requirement does not apply to intentional radiators that must be professionally installedThe FCC does not specify anywhere just what a "professional installer" is, but one can infer it is a person that has knowledge of the rules and how to comply with them. it is the installer responsibility, not the radio manufactures' responsibility for compliance.
Found in "Section 15.203 Antenna requirement"
This is what you're referring to:An intentional radiator shall be designed to ensure that no antenna other than that furnished by the responsible party shall be used with the device. The use of a permanently attached antenna or of an antenna that uses a unique coupling to the intentional radiator shall be considered sufficient to comply with the provisions of this Section. The manufacturer may design the unit so that a broken antenna can be replaced by the user, but the use of a standard antenna jack or electrical connector is prohibited.This is the loop hole for using a standard connector: Further, this requirement does not apply to intentional radiators that must be professionally installedThe FCC does not specify anywhere just what a "professional installer" is, but one can infer it is a person that has knowledge of the rules and how to comply with them. it is the installer responsibility, not the radio manufactures' responsibility for compliance.
StuckInMud
07-29-2009, 12:16 PM
[quote]According to the FCC web site the Bullet's have never been FCC approved. The FCC is very slow to update the certs lists.
Are you saying the Bullets have been FCC granted but have not yet been updated on the FCC web site?
Also, I did speak with Met Labs who did the FCC testing, seems they do have some of the wrong pictures in the report.
The bottom line is the Bullet B2HP has the FCC ID of SWX-B2. The grant for this ID was given per the test report. The test report says the grant was given in part because the B2 had a unique connector. You can't just change the enclosure and put a standard connector on and then claim professional installation after the fact. At least that's what the FCC says.
Are you saying the Bullets have been FCC granted but have not yet been updated on the FCC web site?
Also, I did speak with Met Labs who did the FCC testing, seems they do have some of the wrong pictures in the report.
The bottom line is the Bullet B2HP has the FCC ID of SWX-B2. The grant for this ID was given per the test report. The test report says the grant was given in part because the B2 had a unique connector. You can't just change the enclosure and put a standard connector on and then claim professional installation after the fact. At least that's what the FCC says.
WHT
07-29-2009, 12:37 PM
You can't just change the enclosure and put a standard connector on and then claim professional installation after the fact. Why not?
At least that's what the FCC says.Where?
At least that's what the FCC says.Where?
StuckInMud
07-29-2009, 01:44 PM
You can't just change the enclosure and put a standard connector on and then claim professional installation after the fact.
Why not?
Good question. I'm surprised Ubiquiti doesn't already know the answer. Maybe they do and figure it's worth the risk.
At least that's what the FCC says.
Where?
Give any TCB a call and ask them. I would suggest Met Labs as they did the FCC testing on the B2. After you do that you may want to ask the engineer in charge of certifications about it. This is a rather big issue with regards to getting a FCC Grant, amazing to think Ubiquiti would try to pass it off this way.
Why not?
Good question. I'm surprised Ubiquiti doesn't already know the answer. Maybe they do and figure it's worth the risk.
At least that's what the FCC says.
Where?
Give any TCB a call and ask them. I would suggest Met Labs as they did the FCC testing on the B2. After you do that you may want to ask the engineer in charge of certifications about it. This is a rather big issue with regards to getting a FCC Grant, amazing to think Ubiquiti would try to pass it off this way.
WHT
07-29-2009, 01:58 PM
bottom line - UBNT got the certification. Lets move forward.
StuckInMud
07-29-2009, 02:10 PM
bottom line - UBNT got the certification. Lets move forward.
More accurately stated UBNT is getting away with sticking the FCC ID from another product on the B2. It will be interesting so see the ramifications.
More accurately stated UBNT is getting away with sticking the FCC ID from another product on the B2. It will be interesting so see the ramifications.
WHT
07-29-2009, 02:12 PM
bottom line - UBNT got the certification
Languages translations made by vBET 3.5.4