tellniyi
09-08-2009, 03:32 PM
WHich is better for last mile? 2.4ghz or 5.8ghz? How many nanostation2 can the 2.4ghz M series AirMax radio support and how many nanostation5 can the 5.8ghz M series AirMax radio support?
View Full Version : ubiquiti last mile solution
WHT
09-08-2009, 04:20 PM
Q. WHich is better for last mile? 2.4ghz or 5.8ghz?
A. Depends mainly on other interference and trees.
Q. How many nanostation2 can the 2.4ghz M series AirMax radio support and how many nanostation5 can the 5.8ghz M series AirMax radio support?
A. Any AirMAx AP will only support about 30 to 35 non-AirMax client radios, or up to a hundred AirMax client radios.
A. Depends mainly on other interference and trees.
Q. How many nanostation2 can the 2.4ghz M series AirMax radio support and how many nanostation5 can the 5.8ghz M series AirMax radio support?
A. Any AirMAx AP will only support about 30 to 35 non-AirMax client radios, or up to a hundred AirMax client radios.
tellniyi
09-08-2009, 04:38 PM
Hmmm.. dats is not encouraging at all.. i was going to use the Airmax AP to build a WISP and i was thinking it can do at least 500 AirMax radios.. based on the fact that each radio can easily give out 250 IP addresses?
So wot should i do to support about 500 clients from one BAse Station with 3 19dbi 120degrees sector antennas and 3 radios connected to the antennas?
So wot should i do to support about 500 clients from one BAse Station with 3 19dbi 120degrees sector antennas and 3 radios connected to the antennas?
WHT
09-08-2009, 04:58 PM
So wot should i do to support about 500 clients from one BAse Station with 3 19dbi 120degrees sector antennas and 3 radios connected to the antennas?
Reduce your expectations to a total of three hundred users per tower site (assuming you'll have three AP radios on the tower) and assuming you can be happy with the lowest data speed.
Add a second or third tower in a different direction.
based on the fact that each radio can easily give out 250 IP addresses? No relation to an AP radio's capacity.
Reduce your expectations to a total of three hundred users per tower site (assuming you'll have three AP radios on the tower) and assuming you can be happy with the lowest data speed.
Add a second or third tower in a different direction.
based on the fact that each radio can easily give out 250 IP addresses? No relation to an AP radio's capacity.
shapiros
09-08-2009, 06:41 PM
WHT, where is the cynicism we have grown to love?
There are so many factors associated with "loading a bullet as an AP", even a standardized questionnaire that addresses every possible aspect of setting up a system will be extremely flawed. I LOVE your comment associated with lowering expectations. This is a MUST! tellniyi, especially since you seem to be disappointed with WHT's reality check. You omitted MANY aspects associated with deployment of your system. There are other options currently available and will be coming available from Ubiquiti in the near future that would fit into a scenario for supplying bandwidth to 500 customers from a single location. I should be so lucky where even half that many are available from a single location (or even a third).
One last item, where can I get one of those 19dbi 120 degree sectors?
Sig
There are so many factors associated with "loading a bullet as an AP", even a standardized questionnaire that addresses every possible aspect of setting up a system will be extremely flawed. I LOVE your comment associated with lowering expectations. This is a MUST! tellniyi, especially since you seem to be disappointed with WHT's reality check. You omitted MANY aspects associated with deployment of your system. There are other options currently available and will be coming available from Ubiquiti in the near future that would fit into a scenario for supplying bandwidth to 500 customers from a single location. I should be so lucky where even half that many are available from a single location (or even a third).
One last item, where can I get one of those 19dbi 120 degree sectors?
Sig
WHT
09-08-2009, 07:41 PM
In this era of 2.4ghz everywhere... which unlicensed frequency is actually better for last mile. I am about to start a WISP... and i am thinking it is better to use 5.8ghz as last mile rather than 2.4ghz? what do you guys think.. WHT.. your input is needed here.Think of your solution in terms of a "How would Gucci or Armani turn Jacob's coat of many colors into a fashion statement".
You have to consider the advantages and disadvantages of the two bands, then consider compelling factors. Figure in demographics and housing density - two hundred Joe Six-Pack single-wides will use as much bandwidth as a dozen power-users with a pimped out 4WD truck that has never seen a dirt road.
Factor in your competition - any DSL or cable TV incumbents? You can't expect to compete with a telco's $19 DSL self-install.
Are you going to use a four hundred tower that eats up a single RF channel for 15,000 square miles with 10,000 homes and expect 20% product penetration (2,000 homes)?
Are you married with kids? You'll need them to help with tech support - teach them their TCPs along with their ABCs. Have a girlfriend? They can not be written of as capitol expenses.
You have to consider the advantages and disadvantages of the two bands, then consider compelling factors. Figure in demographics and housing density - two hundred Joe Six-Pack single-wides will use as much bandwidth as a dozen power-users with a pimped out 4WD truck that has never seen a dirt road.
Factor in your competition - any DSL or cable TV incumbents? You can't expect to compete with a telco's $19 DSL self-install.
Are you going to use a four hundred tower that eats up a single RF channel for 15,000 square miles with 10,000 homes and expect 20% product penetration (2,000 homes)?
Are you married with kids? You'll need them to help with tech support - teach them their TCPs along with their ABCs. Have a girlfriend? They can not be written of as capitol expenses.
WHT
09-08-2009, 07:43 PM
WHT, where is the cynicism we have grown to love?
Me? Cynical? I prefer the phrase "well jaded".
Me? Cynical? I prefer the phrase "well jaded".
bobcopro
09-09-2009, 04:53 AM
WHT - almost fell off the chair laughing about the "family" comment. I started out trying to cover a 3x5mi island and harbor (with no competition) hoping for maybe 40-50 clients with stations and maybe pick off a few dozen people off of those installs while they're here on vacation. At 8 weeks in we had 650 users registered with about 80-100 on the system at any given point (thank God users and active users are two different numbers!) At 12 weeks we've deployed over 250 units and have broken up the subnets.
By week 3 I had trained my 12 year old son the IP scheme, how to update the firmware on any AirOS device, how to load default setups, do client contracts, collect the money and run the credit cards and how to properly locate and drill the holes in multi-million dollar vacation homes for the cables to come in and mount the POE while I mount the equipment on the roof. The look on a customers face when a 12 year old comes in with a cordless drill and 18" bit is priceless.
Week 5 my 20 year old son came home from college and learned all of the above as well as ladder safety, site surveys and customer phone support. My wife proofs the support documents and website (critical to reduce the phone load for stupid questions.)
Bottom line - reality never mirrors expectations and yes, it is a family business. And don't discount friends that are stupid enough to come over and help you raise a tower or two!
By week 3 I had trained my 12 year old son the IP scheme, how to update the firmware on any AirOS device, how to load default setups, do client contracts, collect the money and run the credit cards and how to properly locate and drill the holes in multi-million dollar vacation homes for the cables to come in and mount the POE while I mount the equipment on the roof. The look on a customers face when a 12 year old comes in with a cordless drill and 18" bit is priceless.
Week 5 my 20 year old son came home from college and learned all of the above as well as ladder safety, site surveys and customer phone support. My wife proofs the support documents and website (critical to reduce the phone load for stupid questions.)
Bottom line - reality never mirrors expectations and yes, it is a family business. And don't discount friends that are stupid enough to come over and help you raise a tower or two!
tellniyi
09-09-2009, 05:04 AM
WHT,
Thanks for the information. I would have rolled out with high expectations .. thanks for bringing me back to reality.
The area i am looking at is densely populated with about 3,000 apartments within a 3km radius. There are no DSL or cable operators in the area. So it will almost be a monopoly .. what is available is people browsing from their 3G enabled phones.. which are quite few.
What if i have 3 2.4ghz Airmax radios with 3 sector antennas and then 3 5.8ghz Airmax radios with 3 sector antennas on the same tower? Can i achieve at least 500 clients with this setup using both the nanostation2 and nanostation5 for last mile ... the area is open with very little vegetation/trees.
All authentication will be done on my radius server. i am using Mikrotik PowerRouter 732 for web caching, billing and authentication. So the radios will only pass traffic.
What do you think?
Thanks for the information. I would have rolled out with high expectations .. thanks for bringing me back to reality.
The area i am looking at is densely populated with about 3,000 apartments within a 3km radius. There are no DSL or cable operators in the area. So it will almost be a monopoly .. what is available is people browsing from their 3G enabled phones.. which are quite few.
What if i have 3 2.4ghz Airmax radios with 3 sector antennas and then 3 5.8ghz Airmax radios with 3 sector antennas on the same tower? Can i achieve at least 500 clients with this setup using both the nanostation2 and nanostation5 for last mile ... the area is open with very little vegetation/trees.
All authentication will be done on my radius server. i am using Mikrotik PowerRouter 732 for web caching, billing and authentication. So the radios will only pass traffic.
What do you think?
WHT
09-09-2009, 06:04 AM
That's ten square miles. With a 30% penetration, that's 1,000 subscribers.
300 users per 3 radio/3 antenna tower/mast site outta support almost 1,000 users tower location, using 2.4 Gig. Use 5.8 for backhauls or whatever.
Scalability can be achieved with outer perimeter towers using single 2.4 Gig radio and single inward pointing sector antenna.
Advertise 1,5000 or 2,000 Kbps speeds with best effort minimum of 512 Kbps.
You'll need at least 30 to 50 Mbps for your internet connection. Frac OC3 is cheaper than bonded T1. You'll have to shop around for service, there should be about 10 to 20 per cent variation.
300 users per 3 radio/3 antenna tower/mast site outta support almost 1,000 users tower location, using 2.4 Gig. Use 5.8 for backhauls or whatever.
Scalability can be achieved with outer perimeter towers using single 2.4 Gig radio and single inward pointing sector antenna.
Advertise 1,5000 or 2,000 Kbps speeds with best effort minimum of 512 Kbps.
You'll need at least 30 to 50 Mbps for your internet connection. Frac OC3 is cheaper than bonded T1. You'll have to shop around for service, there should be about 10 to 20 per cent variation.
tellniyi
09-09-2009, 06:12 AM
WHT,
Thanks .... i thot about Frac OC3 being cheaper too than bobded T1. I will use a 7 WAN load balancer to aggregate the bandwidth. I am starting with 20Mbps and as the clients grow, i will upgrade.
Once again.. thanks for your help.
Thanks .... i thot about Frac OC3 being cheaper too than bobded T1. I will use a 7 WAN load balancer to aggregate the bandwidth. I am starting with 20Mbps and as the clients grow, i will upgrade.
Once again.. thanks for your help.
jcrites2008
09-09-2009, 08:46 AM
What about DS3? What's the advantages/disadvantages of OC3 and DS3?
ljenkins
09-09-2009, 09:02 AM
OC3 is about 150Mbit....
DS3 is 45Mbit.
OC1 might be what your refering to to compare to the DS3.
OC1 is about 50Mbit.
I think anyways.
In our area OC is cheaper per Mbit than DS if your close enough to the metro ring. for us said Mbit is about $15 cheaper per Mbit than any DS, but the OC loop charge is substantially higher making the OC so not worth it until you need over 100Mbit. So for now We just have a frac DS at 15Mbit and Metro-E from the Telco at 10Mbit with peering.
Hope that helps a bit
DS3 is 45Mbit.
OC1 might be what your refering to to compare to the DS3.
OC1 is about 50Mbit.
I think anyways.
In our area OC is cheaper per Mbit than DS if your close enough to the metro ring. for us said Mbit is about $15 cheaper per Mbit than any DS, but the OC loop charge is substantially higher making the OC so not worth it until you need over 100Mbit. So for now We just have a frac DS at 15Mbit and Metro-E from the Telco at 10Mbit with peering.
Hope that helps a bit
ljenkins
09-09-2009, 09:07 AM
Think of your solution in terms of a "How would Gucci or Armani turn Jacob's coat of many colors into a fashion statement".
You have to consider the advantages and disadvantages of the two bands, then consider compelling factors. Figure in demographics and housing density - two hundred Joe Six-Pack single-wides will use as much bandwidth as a dozen power-users with a pimped out 4WD truck that has never seen a dirt road.
Factor in your competition - any DSL or cable TV incumbents? You can't expect to compete with a telco's $19 DSL self-install.
Are you going to use a four hundred tower that eats up a single RF channel for 15,000 square miles with 10,000 homes and expect 20% product penetration (2,000 homes)?
Are you married with kids? You'll need them to help with tech support - teach them their TCPs along with their ABCs. Have a girlfriend? They can not be written of as capitol expenses.
Best post ever on Ubnt forum. screenshot is saved on my desktop and mailing it out to the office folk.
You have to consider the advantages and disadvantages of the two bands, then consider compelling factors. Figure in demographics and housing density - two hundred Joe Six-Pack single-wides will use as much bandwidth as a dozen power-users with a pimped out 4WD truck that has never seen a dirt road.
Factor in your competition - any DSL or cable TV incumbents? You can't expect to compete with a telco's $19 DSL self-install.
Are you going to use a four hundred tower that eats up a single RF channel for 15,000 square miles with 10,000 homes and expect 20% product penetration (2,000 homes)?
Are you married with kids? You'll need them to help with tech support - teach them their TCPs along with their ABCs. Have a girlfriend? They can not be written of as capitol expenses.
Best post ever on Ubnt forum. screenshot is saved on my desktop and mailing it out to the office folk.
WHT
09-09-2009, 09:19 AM
OC3 is three times faster than DS3 (aka T3).
OC1 is same speed as T3.
OC1/3 requires a fiber line run to your premise.
DS3 (T3) requires a coax run to your premise.
Fiber and coax can be replaced with a wireless PtP link if you co-locate your head-end at the provider's PoP.
Frac DSC3 (T3) is less expensive than bonded T1 lines, but...
T1 can use existing copper and T3 requires coax.
OC1 is same speed as T3.
OC1/3 requires a fiber line run to your premise.
DS3 (T3) requires a coax run to your premise.
Fiber and coax can be replaced with a wireless PtP link if you co-locate your head-end at the provider's PoP.
Frac DSC3 (T3) is less expensive than bonded T1 lines, but...
T1 can use existing copper and T3 requires coax.
WHT
09-09-2009, 09:34 AM
Best post ever on Ubnt forum. screenshot is saved on my desktop and mailing it out to the office folk.
Dang...ya mean it is better than my Book of Ford post?
UBNT Saint Mike edition - Book of Ford, Chapter 1, Verse 1
Where -50 is the number, no more, no less. -50 shall be the number thou shalt use, and the number to be used shall be -50. -70 thou shall not use, neither use -20. -10 is right out. Once the number -50, being the fourth magnitude above the receiver threshold, be used, then lobbest thy data towards thy client, who being correctly WPA encryption approved, shall use it.
Dang...ya mean it is better than my Book of Ford post?
UBNT Saint Mike edition - Book of Ford, Chapter 1, Verse 1
Where -50 is the number, no more, no less. -50 shall be the number thou shalt use, and the number to be used shall be -50. -70 thou shall not use, neither use -20. -10 is right out. Once the number -50, being the fourth magnitude above the receiver threshold, be used, then lobbest thy data towards thy client, who being correctly WPA encryption approved, shall use it.
shapiros
09-09-2009, 12:07 PM
I have no seen the "Book of Ford" before. Wish my rabbi granddad was around to show that one to. He would laugh his ****' off.
WHT is right. Cat3 copper "stops" at 10mb. It is considered "thin ethernet". Then Cat4, coax and finally fiber. Where I am, a 100mb OC line will cost >$50K/mo. Even a fractal OC line will cost out the "ying-yang". I have to pay >$2K/mo for those 10mb lines.
WHT, how far does that BM2HP link of yours reach???
Sig
WHT is right. Cat3 copper "stops" at 10mb. It is considered "thin ethernet". Then Cat4, coax and finally fiber. Where I am, a 100mb OC line will cost >$50K/mo. Even a fractal OC line will cost out the "ying-yang". I have to pay >$2K/mo for those 10mb lines.
WHT, how far does that BM2HP link of yours reach???
Sig
WHT
09-09-2009, 12:42 PM
Ya mean my Bullet M5 link? 22 miles with 28 dBi antennas at both ends.
shapiros
09-09-2009, 12:55 PM
Yeah, that one!
Think if we bump you up to a 32dbi antenna it would reach to Alabama? I have access to a tower that >1000ft above sea level...
Sig
Think if we bump you up to a 32dbi antenna it would reach to Alabama? I have access to a tower that >1000ft above sea level...
Sig
WHT
09-09-2009, 01:29 PM
Alabama? Hmm..My official National State of Texas map only shows "uncharted territories" east of the Missippi.
UBNT-Mike.Ford
09-09-2009, 01:36 PM
Alabama? Hmm..My official National State of Texas map only shows "uncharted territories" east of the Missippi.
Funny my National State of California map shows "uncharted territories" from this side of Sierra Nevada mountains to the the east side of some wierd mountain range called The Appalachians...
Funny my National State of California map shows "uncharted territories" from this side of Sierra Nevada mountains to the the east side of some wierd mountain range called The Appalachians...
shapiros
09-09-2009, 01:47 PM
I shall be and always remain...
UNINCORPORATED!
Sig
UNINCORPORATED!
Sig
WHT
09-09-2009, 01:49 PM
Funny my National State of California map shows "uncharted territories" from this side of Sierra Nevada mountains to the the east side of some wierd mountain range called The Appalachians...
Love you, love this town;
Love this mother-lovin' truck that keeps breakin' lovin' down
There's only one four-letter word that'll do:
Love you
Love you, love this town;
Love this mother-lovin' truck that keeps breakin' lovin' down
There's only one four-letter word that'll do:
Love you
shapiros
09-09-2009, 02:02 PM
Now THAT, is "well jaded"!
Sig
Sig
WHT
09-09-2009, 02:08 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsdaCHxL0fM
UBNT-Mike.Ford
09-09-2009, 03:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsdaCHxL0fM
...........
...........
tellniyi
09-10-2009, 03:21 AM
Hmmm.. i'm learning so much from this forum... thanx guys... keep it coming
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